tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1287550692312955328.post8958776391295298429..comments2023-04-07T01:24:10.515-07:00Comments on No School Grognard: Better Fantasy Armor: Armor ModifiersMark Langsdorfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00301984145275679568noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1287550692312955328.post-76448266497792902532013-11-26T08:20:16.221-08:002013-11-26T08:20:16.221-08:00Have you considered making the relatively abundant...Have you considered making the relatively abundant availability of Greek bronze armor an attribute of the Greeks rather than of bronze armor? Perhaps they had a cultural or technological advantage that made it abnormally easy to acquire in that time and place.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08285566251159438706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1287550692312955328.post-61379961481797865922013-11-08T10:29:47.830-08:002013-11-08T10:29:47.830-08:00Cheap already makes it easier to target gaps (redu...Cheap already makes it easier to target gaps (reduces the -8/-10 penalty to -6/-8), and if you combine that with the heavy armor rule, you're down to -4/-6 to target the gaps in the abdomen, elbows, shoulders, knees, hands, and feet of cheap, heavy armor. Given that the abdomen includes the vitals, you're only at -6 to get half DR while stabbing important bits. What more do you need?<br /><br />Voiders, a kind of flexible armor that only covers the gaps in rigid armor at the abdomen, knees, elbows, and shoulders, should cost 4% of base armor cost and not count as layering if it's Thin for SM0 armor. DR 3 mail voiders would cost $60 and weigh 0.7 lbs; DR5 elven hardened mithril mail voiders would cost $3780 and weigh 0.8 lb. If you're already wearing DR8 armor (reasonable if not a little low for someone who can afford mithril voiders) that would give you DR9* against attacks in the gaps - already better than your base armor.Mark Langsdorfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00301984145275679568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1287550692312955328.post-5992178521163531312013-11-08T08:31:58.596-08:002013-11-08T08:31:58.596-08:00Just to continue the kibbitzing:
Please consider ...Just to continue the kibbitzing:<br /><br />Please consider having some of the options affect the chinks targeting penalty. For example, cheap might lower it for nonflexible armors, as might a hypothetical ill-fitting, and that's probably a good option for wearing overly heavy armor as well. <br /><br />Additionally, an option combining underlayers with chinks in overlayers would be fun if you could make it straightforward.martinlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14046036634336503492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1287550692312955328.post-39295783803008132592013-11-07T11:27:31.496-08:002013-11-07T11:27:31.496-08:00"Nymph Warlords" would be a great name f..."Nymph Warlords" would be a great name for an adventuring band.martinlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14046036634336503492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1287550692312955328.post-58237119236934190182013-11-07T06:38:09.415-08:002013-11-07T06:38:09.415-08:00Those are good points, though there is something o...Those are good points, though there is something of an issue in that my games, fae and elves tend to replace Sense of Duty: Nature with various other disadvantages, often a weakness or vulnerability to iron. So letting them have reasonably priced bronze armor is helpful.<br /><br />Still, this is DF, and we can assume that tin comes from someplace other than central Britain and thus is stupid expensive if you're a Theban hoplite. Making copper and bronze CF+3 wouldn't be insane, would let people find ancient copper armor as cool treasure, and would let Nymph Warlords wear bronze cuirasses at enough of an extra cost to make the disadvantage count but not so bad that they couldn't afford armor.Mark Langsdorfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00301984145275679568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1287550692312955328.post-83419838670959175222013-11-07T06:21:15.520-08:002013-11-07T06:21:15.520-08:00There are multiple interacting problems with bronz...There are multiple interacting problems with bronze armored hoplites in GURPS in general, yes. On the other hand, you are writing this specifically for DF so I respectfully suggest that you screw those guys.<br /><br />In DF, copper is a modifier for backwards types and ancient artifacts, and it's main purpose is to give stats to *treasure*. Bronze is similar, but it has an extra niche role as a standard in settings where the GM wants armor to be more expensive in general, or for critters who don't like iron. A high CF won't break the game or make your players sad - they *want* the loot to be valuable.martinlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14046036634336503492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1287550692312955328.post-70273555987975752442013-11-07T03:47:39.120-08:002013-11-07T03:47:39.120-08:00I'll grant that a full bronze panoply was ofte...I'll grant that a full bronze panoply was often inherited, but that doesn't change the wealth level of the owner, it just explains where it came from. And bronze armor hoplites were not the richest guys in the ancient Greek armies - the richest guys were the cavalrymen. The bronze armored hoplites were rich, but they weren't that rich - Wealthy to Very Wealthy at best. And given that a reasonable bronze panoply is already coming it at over $10K, that's already hard to afford even for the Very Wealthy at TL2. So bumping the price of copper armor to CF+3 (even though it sucks) and bronze to CF+9 (arguably should be CF+15) and thereby doubling the cost of bronze panoply doesn't make much sense.<br /><br />Of course, GURPS rules for wealth don't work very well, but I don't know a good way to square that circle.<br /><br />I'm going to add a GCA file for this stuff Real Soon Now (tm). I'm hoping to get some help from Bruno, since she did the armor file for Low-Tech, but I'll do it myself if I don't hear back from her soon.Mark Langsdorfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00301984145275679568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1287550692312955328.post-64121063523942303662013-11-07T01:41:50.748-08:002013-11-07T01:41:50.748-08:00Hello !
I just want to say that this system looks...Hello !<br /><br />I just want to say that this system looks very interesting ! I definitely have to make an program taking it all into account to calculate armor characteristics...<br /><br />I was very surprised, opening those two articles once again today (third reading), that there was so few comments, for so great a system...<br /><br />I second Martin Leubschen on the Wealth level of the heavy armored Hoplites. They are the top of the Greek warrior society, they have numerous slaves working to sustain them, and those able to afford their own armor are not many. First, they are free and able bodied. Those too poor just have weapons, and a helmet probably, richer ones get light armor, and the richest get bronze armor. Maybe the get their father's armor and shield too ?<br /><br />I think I'll use your articles for my Conan game, as soon as I make the application to calculate everything for me ^^ (and include rules for the time of crafting from http://rpg.wikia.com/wiki/GURPS/Smithing ).<br /><br />Thanks, keep up the (very) good work !Vlad malkavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14287760654547816927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1287550692312955328.post-51416678060541395642013-11-06T13:28:23.796-08:002013-11-06T13:28:23.796-08:00"in theory, Comfortable to Wealthy Greek hopl..."in theory, Comfortable to Wealthy Greek hoplites are supposed to be able to afford full bronze panoplies at TL2, and that's already stupid hard to pull off"<br /><br />Wouldn't it be easier to assume the Greeks in question were richer than rejigger all the other stuff?<br /><br />As for the bad modifiers, you hit the nail on the head. Old corroded yet insanely magical stuff is fun, as is scavenged stuff when yer broke, as is just really nice stuff you inherited or looted but can resize, or mooks in cheap crap armor, or even nasty status effects applied to your armor after the fat-sucking vampire changes your build, etc.<br /><br />In other words, there's a lot of fun for the GM available here too.<br /><br />Random tangent: there might be some fun enchantment effects associated with some materials. Copper might be easy to enchant with lightning effects, bone with necro effects, etc. with etc. effects.martinlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14046036634336503492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1287550692312955328.post-57684186077026897592013-11-06T11:03:32.957-08:002013-11-06T11:03:32.957-08:00Nice catch on the copper, but I'm in good comp...Nice catch on the copper, but I'm in good company: Low-Tech also has copper scale armor costing $20-$25 per pound. I can't think of a good solution that doesn't make bronze even more insanely awful/expensive (in theory, Comfortable to Wealthy Greek hoplites are supposed to be able to afford full bronze panoplies at TL2, and that's already stupid hard to pull off).<br /><br />My usual approach is to price gold at $500/oz (40% of the suggested prices, but comparable to modern ore values until recently), which would knock copper down to $25/lb, and make copper scale almost reasonable maybe sorta.<br /><br />Poorly maintained seems like an obvious add to any armor: Cost x1/4, add semi-ablative (or increase semi-ablative armor to ablative armor). Armor isn't nearly as cool when it gets shredded after a couple of blows.<br /><br />I'm not as concerned about negative modifiers, though, since I write with an audience of players in mind, and bad options tend to get ignored and thus time and energy can be saved by not writing them. Though I suppose if you find the Invulnerable Coat of Arnd and it turns out to be rusty, ill-fitting, and badly maintained, you might still go with it because hey, where else are you going to get DR12 Fluted, Hardened Orichalcum Segmented Plate with an integral DR3 Hardened Mithril Elven Mail liner, all of which is enchanted out the wazoo?Mark Langsdorfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00301984145275679568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1287550692312955328.post-22775272617837455992013-11-06T10:45:03.935-08:002013-11-06T10:45:03.935-08:001. This is good stuff.
2. Copper scale is ~$21/l...1. This is good stuff.<br />2. Copper scale is ~$21/lb and raw copper is $62.5 lb. Cheap copper scale is ~$10 lb. Backing, straps, impurities, etc can only dilute the value of the metal so far. Consider a CF of x2 or something - it's not like it will make it significantly less attractive as armor.<br />3. Other purely negative modifiers are worth discussing. Ill-fitting, badly maintained, etc. as easy yo add modifiers for ancient artifacts and so forth.<br />4. Don't stop.martinlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14046036634336503492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1287550692312955328.post-61219221435674060582013-11-06T05:10:10.881-08:002013-11-06T05:10:10.881-08:00Thanks! I'd just assumed that no one cared =/....Thanks! I'd just assumed that no one cared =/. I've probably got two or three more posts in this series to come.Mark Langsdorfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00301984145275679568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1287550692312955328.post-5813025219941764372013-11-06T05:00:51.846-08:002013-11-06T05:00:51.846-08:00I'm not sure why you get so few comments on yo...I'm not sure why you get so few comments on your work - so I thought I'd just show some love. This stuff is really good, keep it up!PseudoFentonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14054154200055912286noreply@blogger.com